Sexist Stereotypes in Blue Mars

[Sorina Garrigus]

I just went through the inventory and look about there are variety of tops including a polo shirt and also a pair of jean shorts. Not sure how this is sexism this is something I might wear going out for a bike ride. The shorts are pretty normal length for jean shorts. Not sexist not come hither not anything of the sort. OMG i CAN SEE MY LEGS. Being able to see a womans legs as a taboo for most the world went out over 100 years ago? Maybe the default choice should been a burka. Its pretty clear this isnt SL where you can make custom clothes just by logging in. When BM actually goes live and out of beta. yes its still in beta. I am sure there were be 100s of shops and such to go pick out what you want to wear and change your appearance etc. Its not a lack of foresite maybe wait for all those empty stores to customize your AV with different skins, hair, etc. Now if people are describing a concervative polo shirt and common jean shorts as something provocative you really need to go to any club in SL to refresh your memory what is provacative. If there were like 30 options for clothing and all were the same lets go to the club kind of outfits I would understand. But there are very few outfits to pick from for testing purposes. When it goes live just go shopping.

It makes me feel a lot better about Linden Lab. At least in SL I came into world to work on social action with nonprofits, and didn't even learn about all the sex/drugs/rock&roll for my first year-ish there (I have been in SL almost 4 years now). I was immediately allowed to be dusky skinned, and dress modestly, and look like a woman of a certain age. I was allowed to cover my knees. I was comfortable in my virtual skin, and I also felt like I could present myself as a professional to people I met.

The implications about the lack of foresight in the devs is disturbing. How many women who come into this environment can identify with their avatars?

For me I wanted to customize my avatar abit more but with the knowledge that its still in beta and a test I never really considered if I identify with my avatar or not. I can't do much with it at the momment. When I took a screenshot of myself I actually ended up taking it into photoshop to change my hair to a proper shade of green. BM is based in Hawaii and I personally am in california. If I were then making a burka wouldn't been the first thought on my mind. Me I would lets through something out there simple like a simple halter top some shorts and get the ball rolling.

[DaleInnis]

I just went through the inventory and look about there are variety of tops including a polo shirt and also a pair of jean shorts. Not sure how this is sexism this is something I might wear going out for a bike ride. The shorts are pretty normal length for jean shorts. Not sexist not come hither not anything of the sort. OMG i CAN SEE MY LEGS.

Sorina, all people are saying is that the fact that, in the Beta, men have clothes that cover their legs, and women don't, seems like a bad sign. You're okay with that, and that's terrific. But it's not necessary to make fun of other people expressing their honest opinions. (You'd wear those shorts for a bike ride; would you wear them to a professional meeting?)

Jim Sink has tweeted that the lack of long pants for women is a program bug, and that's good. It's too bad that it's not fixed yet, and I also think it's a pity that no one from AR has posted to either the forums here, or to their own weblog, in like two weeks. If someone from the AR team would post here saying "we're really sorry about this, there really are long pants for women in the Beta, they just don't show up due to a bug, and we're having problems getting an update out but we expect it'll be out by mm/dd, and we realize that it looks bad but be assured it wasn't on purpose", that'd reassure everyone I think.

Maybe the Community Liaison guy is on vacation...

[Markadian]

Nah, he, and the rest of the team, are swamped with emails, and the programmers are adding in the requested features and adding more to the UI.

[DaleInnis]

Nah, he, and the rest of the team, are swamped with emails, and the programmers are adding in the requested features and adding more to the UI.

Well, we are happy you have the time to talk to us, anyway.

[Markadian]

My pleasure. You've been asking very real questions and I'm happy to answer as much as I can.

Just keep in mind I do not work for Avatar Reality. I am a city developer.

[Jess]

Yes, I think we're pretty much entirely serious. The point is exactly that at the moment there is no choice in Blue Mars about how we walk and stand, and very little choice in how we dress. And the things that we have no choice about aren't neutral, they're based on sexist stereotypes (female NPCs flirting with only male players, female AVs walking "sexy" and male AVs strutting, etc). Sure lots of people *choose* to do that sort of thing in Second Life, but it's not imposed on anyone. The default walk is that same stupid duck-walk for everyone. Very fair.

My point exactly. I am also quite serious about this.

In SL we have a CHOICE. If you don't like the defaults, you can buy AOs and animations and poses to change the defaults any way you wish.

But right now, in the current beta of BM, we don't have a choice. For its eventual launch, BM would be better of giving the same default animations to all avatars, male and female, and convert all the currently-segregated-by-sex animations into ones which can be chosen by either sex.

Yes please, I've no desire to be some macho man with girls swarming around me.
I want clothes which isn't baggy and covering my whole body while females go around showing off their skin. Guys should be able to show off some skin as well. Not letting us be able to do that IS sexist. I am not a developer and I can't make these things myself so I just hope there's a way I can still have this on my avatar.

[01Aladdin]

Im startin to like you guys already!

[Sorina Garrigus]

Sorina, all people are saying is that the fact that, in the Beta, men have clothes that cover their legs, and women don't, seems like a bad sign. You're okay with that, and that's terrific. But it's not necessary to make fun of other people expressing their honest opinions. (You'd wear those shorts for a bike ride; would you wear them to a professional meeting?)

In real life no of course not but given my business meetings in SL I have dealings with furries, people dressed as doms, the occassional robot, even a dog and I deal in games. Also for VR business I wouldnt be having meetings in something that barely started in beta. I am not making fun of people but I am just pointing out the obsurdity of throwing labels and implications of sexism and racism etc when there is a lot of work for the devs to do. I am in california but it isn't uncommon for a woman's business outfit/skirt not to go to the ankles. Thats what you would call a dress come to think of it. I did talk to Glen (on the ocean) in there sounds like there are some new clothes and I think animations coming but I crashed and missed part of what he said though. Its way to early for me to consider business meetings inside of blue mars but if I were I am sure they would understand that its still in beta and a work in progress.

I think there is a lot of people thinking oh I love SL and want to attack BM for dinky things. SL use to be about acceptance diversity and not being so highly judgemental, at least for people thats been in it as long as I have. I am not leaving SL for blue mars but looking forward to BM to expand into.

[DaleInnis]

I really don't think people are attacking Blue Mars because they love SL, I think they're just expressing their honest feelings and opinions about the BM beta. Sigh.

[mszv]

This is about the choices the developers made, prior to opening the beta. Given that there would be a limited set of options in the beta, they decided that skimpy clothes for women and more covered up clothes for men were the way to go, also on the avatar flirting thing. Obviously, they could have made other choices. The kindest interpretation is that they just didn't, you know, think! It also makes you wonder, as always, what sort of people are on the development team - a not uncommon problem (from what I've read) in the game industry, though some say it's getting better.

Oh, to be the proverbial "fly on the wall". I wonder, did anyone on the team say - "this is a problem, we shouldn't do this", or did it just not occur to them?